Concerns about the new weapons

[Phantasy]

I have a 300 jeweler and tailor, so I was very excited to see that I had new recipes to make. I made several of the Elaborate and Intricate whips, saps, and fist wraps on release day, and today made some Exalted, Eminent, and Sacred weapon augments (nimble versions).

Here is my concern: Up to level 60, the weapons appear to be balanced. Past 60, why would anyone buy a crafted weapon/augment when they can get a superior SoF weapon in bazaar for much cheaper than I can even craft a weapon/augment?

I don't expect the crafted ones to be crazy better, but it would be nice if they were at least an alternative. They are barely better than Elaborate Defiant weapons (speaking of the 66-70 versions at the moment), and mainly because they have mod 2's and/or elemental damage and some sort of proc.

Maybe this is because I'm looking at it from a non-fighting class perspective (I mostly play casters), so if I'm missing something desirable here, please, tell me, because I want to feel that I didn't waste my time and plat the last few days scrouging up the gems, spinneret fluids, and so forth to make these things.

Here's my comparisons:
SoF weapon: Dawnlight Fistwraps (usually sells for 1-5k on Tunare), req 65, rec 75
At level 75 it is a damage 24, delay 20 weapon. It has a 125 damage fire based proc, its ac/hps/sps/end is very comparable to the crafted ones, its mod 2's somwhat better for a melee.

Crafted weapon: Elaborate Leather Fist Wraps, req 66, rec 70
Crafted symbol: Eminent Nimble Symbol of Thaumaturgy
Augmented, this weapon at level 70 would be a damage 16, delay 18 weapon with prismatic damage 1 added on. It has a 50 damage prismatic based proc, and I won't bore you with the rest of the stats.

So far, I'm the only one on my server to seemingly have made these (if anyone else has, they haven't put them up for sale). I'm trying to price them reasonably, taking into account what I've invested and minding that I'd like to make some sort of profit--and I have yet to sell any of this stuff. I just came back to my computer a bit ago and saw this little snippet of commentary (which is what prompted me to post):

----
Per1 says ooc: "this Elaborate Leather Fist Wraps new?"
Per2 says ooc: "yeah you put augs in them to give it more damage and a proc"
Per1 says ooc: "ahh I was going to says that's horrible... like this Eminent Nimble Symbol of Integrity?"
Per2 says ooc: "even with the augs they don't have 1/1 ratios. not great by any means"
Per2 says ooc: "Fearpoint is 9k. DL Fistwraps is 1k. You decide :)"
----

That's really disheartening. Can someone please make me feel good about these new weapons somehow????

[Sylphan]

This came up quite a bit in beta too. The response is always to point to some thread where a dev said they were considering improving the weapon ratios on the groupable weapons from the last few expansions (meaning not from raids). That is ever and always the hope we have to cling to.

They really do seem to be serious about fixing weapon ratios (retroactively, and on mob-dropped group weapons too). Of course, we thought that about the last round of cultural armor too.

[Zukiki]

My personal beef with the new weapons are
1) No Heroic Stats on Sublime or Stalwart...why bother with regular stats at this level? Why include it with cultural armor, but not weapeons?

2) Having the symbol's proc only work at max level seems kind of pointless unless you're 85. Otherwise, if you're not at the specific levels of the maxxed symbols you'll need to use a less powerful symbol to be able to use the proc.

3) I'm all for giving melee classes a wider selection of weapons, but would it be so bad to give priests/casters an option besides 1hb?

As a priest/caster class, I don't really care about the ratio's, I'm more concered about the stats/proc; just for the cost it took me to make it for myself, it really didn't seem worth it, but to try to turn a profit on it too? I don't see it happening.

[Aldier]

Crafted weapons have to be on par with group weapons unless they require a raid drop. If group weapons improve, crafted weapons will improve.

[Roanne]

As long as "on par" != slightly worse they will be worth the time to make.

[Taomiel]

My personal beef with the new weapons are
1) No Heroic Stats on Sublime or Stalwart...why bother with regular stats at this level? Why include it with cultural armor, but not weapons?...


You will have difficulty finding weapons that have heroic stats at all! Raiders during the anniversary events were annoyed that the fabled weapons had them while their raid drop weapons did not.

As far as I know those weapons are still the only ones that have heroic stats.

[GrimwoodCT]

The good news?

They are selling as fast as I can make them.

[Clubfingers]

On the FV server, we have SoD group weapons selling for up to 10x less than it would cost just to "attempt" to make a cultural weapon that's not as good.

Disappointing, to say the least.

These weapons are crying for a slot 12 and a new line of uses for the raid stones.

[Aldier]

I don't understand why the parts for these would be so high priced. The Spongy Loams and Immaculate Marrows/Fluids are overpriced then.

Type 12 Raid augs do NOT need to go in these weapons otherwise they will just cause the same problem they did with the armor.

[Roanne]

Clearly the "cultural" weapons are a disappointment to anyone looking past the novelty of a new tradeskilled design template. The stats don't live up to the effort, the modules are difficult to understand for non-tradesmen (and even many tradesmen), the market for raw components is overvalued, and the final results aren't even an upgrade to most mains.

The devs have become so gun-shy introducing new systems as to render the gear impotent. I don't understand why gear deamed "tradeskilled" has to be inferior to gear dropped directly from the same camps as the parts necessary for the tradeskilled gear.

Yes, there are some potentially interesting combinations that might appeal to some niche markets, but nothing on the scale of cultural armor. Cultural armor's greatness stemmed from the fact it was a real upgrade to both group and raid players. Most of these weapons are alt-fodder in their best case combinations and most people don't have the resources necessary to even make this gear just to turn it over to an alt.

Maybe if the stats are eventually improved as has been suggested may happen or the raw components market adjusts to a reasonable level as the novelty factor wears out and people obtain higher average levels I may reconsider, but as the system exists now the results are disappointing.

[Paerien]

I'm having a very difficult time selling them, now... None sold in the last 5-6 days of advertising. I don't have any on my trader - there's just too many options for the symbols/procs for me to make one of each and put on my trader. And even if I could, most people don't know anything about them to know that the symbols aren't deity-specific. And in the meantime, they're picking up better/as good weapons in SoD and Crystallos. And they don't compare to 2.0's either - I had a 76 toon respond to a "/OOC Selling new cultural weapons...", and they linked their 2.0 (Berserker). Shocking, the difference between them. Of course, an Elegant/Sublime isn't going to match up with that, but exactly who are these weapons/augs for??? Gimps that tradeskill more than grind, like me, for one! ;) That's about it, though. :(

[Clubfingers]

Type 12 Raid augs do NOT need to go in these weapons otherwise they will just cause the same problem they did with the armor.

What are the problems with the armor? IMO, the armor is perfect.

Armor: You can make just Elegant and a Sublime and it's comparable to group gear. Then you have the option to add a raid aug to make it raid quality. The better raids you do, the better quality raid augs become available. It's so upgradable that it never gets old and there are configurations for the soloist, to the grouper, to hardcore raiders.

Weapons: There is not even an option to make them as good as group gear.

[Aldier]

What are the problems with the armor? IMO, the armor is perfect.

Armor: You can make just Elegant and a Sublime and it's comparable to group gear. Then you have the option to add a raid aug to make it raid quality. The better raids you do, the better quality raid augs become available. It's so upgradable that it never gets old and there are configurations for the soloist, to the grouper, to hardcore raiders.

Weapons: There is not even an option to make them as good as group gear.

The problem with armor was that they set it up to be able to mix-and-match and then found out when people did that, it created pieces they deemed too powerful for the effort required to get. What I mean, is that the dev's feel that Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood is too powerful for the effort required to obtain them. You are right, as group armor with no slot 12 it was same hp/mana/ac stats of Tier 3 group armor but lacked any kind of focus. So unless they were to restrict only 1 type of type 12 aug to fit in a certain type of crafted armor, then it would be a "set" where Elegant only could go with Sublime and only then fit with Faycite raid augs. If they made that restriction, it defeats the purpose of being interchangable parts you can upgrade 1 at a time.

The only way I could see weapon based "raid" augs is if they added them only to some SOD raids. Also, the next tier of crafted weapons would need to have a different aug slot for a different raid aug that only drops in the next expansion, and so on. So for every expansion you need to assign another aug type.

I do not know what tier of SOD that the new crafted weapons are supposed to be compared to though.

[Jonny Panic]

The best responses I've gotten to the top-end weapons so far are for casters (who want the stats) and alts.

Also of note: dual wield classes are able to get cultural love in both hands, but non DW classes are left out in the cold. A warrior can have a longsword in each hand, but a knight, a druid, enchanter, etc, are stuck with one cultural weapon and... as a good baseline... the TSS quested Battered Shield of the Fallen Guard.

A set of cultural shields would have been nice. A series of bows and non-bow range items too.

[Andarriel]

Been nice if they added some type of shield for us casters.

Andarriel

[Sunshinne]

There's several augments that have no proc on them at all, and no extra damage or stats that I can see to compensate; they seem to be equivalent minus a proc. 1-2 elemental damage is next to worthless to a pure melee.

So maybe some of them could have generic or nuke focii added in place of that missing proc to give a few more options to casters? As is I have to tell priests/casters their only option is 1hb and it doesn't really matter which aug they pick because all the stats are nearly identical.

I've already had people ask about a shield as well.

Besides the ratios being a little low across the board, a lot of the procs are very dissapointing. The hate proc on the venerable aug is only +250 compared to enraging blow +700?. At level 81+ this should really be comparable. I was glad to see a deaggro aug, even if that one is a little low too, and I think one of the best augs is the stun that works up to level 89. 125DD at level 81, this should be at least 175 imo. And the procs on the 2handers augs are all the same as the 1handers. The HoT proc comes out to less than the straight heal; this is usually the other way around.

Stalwart Dagger + Venerable Penetrating Symbol of the Skeptic = 28(28)/19 with one type 4 slot, required 81
-no % backstab mod

Nightshade, Blade of Entropy = 27(27)/19 with type 4,8 (2 dmg aug slots) required 70
-12% backstab mod

Personally the final ratios on the lvl 81 stuff should be the lvl 71 or 76, and the 81 should be nicer. They are equivalent to 2.0 but at the wrong level.

Also the berserker 2.0 is a fluke, there wasn't even a comparable 2hander in normal crystallos, not by a longshot. That weapon is just disgusting as far as casual goes. I think I finally saw a comparable ratio out of the new locked group zone.

[Aldier]

Stalwart Dagger + Venerable Penetrating Symbol of the Skeptic = 28(28)/19 with one type 4 slot, required 81
-no % backstab mod

Nightshade, Blade of Entropy = 27(27)/19 with type 4,8 (2 dmg aug slots) required 70
-12% backstab mod

Personally the final ratios on the lvl 81 stuff should be the lvl 71 or 76, and the 81 should be nicer. They are equivalent to 2.0 but at the wrong level.

As far as the backstab mod, they seem to be trying to ween off of that mod in SoD. The group and raid daggers in SOD no longer have %age backstab but straight +backstab so as to limit the rampant growth of a %age when they raise skill caps.

Remember, 2.0s are still considered RAID items and from what I remember, I think I read a post that the new crafted weapons would start to eclipse 1.5s but and be close to 2.0s. Whether you agree with this or not it is what I recall being said. I don't remember exactly where though to be able to quote, sorry.

[Jonny Panic]

I'm still hoping for some shields to come of this. Even if they're not quite competitive with SoD group shields, it'd be nice if they finally eclipsed the Battered Shield of the Fallen Guard.

Also of note: Some of the augs do lack exceptional damage or procs. What confuses me most is the ice aug... no proc, no extra damage, just ice damage.

Also of note: Ngreth, you guys severely overestimate elemental damage of all sorts, even if it's Chromatic. Elemental damage is generally only good for one thing: The occasional pretty shot in the logs, when they don't resist and you get a nice crit. Resists are often enough that the general rule is: three or four elemental damage equals one raw damage.
The elemental damage on these augs just isn't enough... ALL the elemental damage on every one of them is only worth about one raw damage.
Nor are the procs enough, especially at 85. Either ditch the elemental damage and up the procs, do the reverse, or up them both.
You guys also need to vary them a bit more. As mentioned above, NONE of these augs are geared toward casters, except MAYBE the hate reducer... perhaps the procs of certain augs can be caster-oriented; small HoHV procs, SK-style bites, mana taps, etc.

Overall, I like the idea, and look forward to the retune, but I really hope the retune addresses these issues as well.