Yes, it *IS* a nerf.

[Lilosh]

Regardless of if it was bugged, broken, advantageous, or just plain unfair to you.


The original term "Nerfed" was referring to when something had been effective or useful , and then became less useful, or even not at all.

It's as though you were happily using a fork to eat mashed potatoes, and someone then encased the handle and prongs in big blocks of nerf-foam coating.

Or if you were busy whacking at something with a large stick, and it suddenly became covered with a thick layer of nerf coating. Not as effective, is it?


Now, I admit that hearing people cry "OMG WTH NERF!!!!111" after every patch can be a bit annoying. The term is certianly a bit overused. And the ocean is a bit damp.

Regardless, when Sony nerfs something that many people enjoy, you accomplish NOTHING buy quipping "It's not a nerf, It's a fix". I used to be quite guilty of that, but now I've changed my behavior.

So next time you hear about another class getting nerfed, or a recipe you couldn't use getting nerfed, or a quest you couldn't do getting changed, please refrain from doing what is tantamount to gloating, and remember....

It is a nerf.


This has been a public Service anouncement,
-Lilosh

[Dunthor Warsmith]

"Nerf" has really degraded from a useful term to just basically be synonymous with "its been changed". *Every* single change seems to get called a nerf by some person/group, regardless of what it seems the majority of players think (if there does seem to be some kind of concensus).

Every change offends somebody. The world of "PC" comes to EQ.

Nothing is allowed to be just a fix anymore.

[Saleani]

It's as though you were happily using a fork to eat mashed potatoes, and someone then encased the handle and prongs in big blocks of nerf-foam coating.

All hail the Sporklord, lord and creator of sporks .

Weasel words: not to be confused with the foon, instrument of evil-doers from around the world, who love to cover your eating instruments in useless stuff, like vegetables and cheese steaks.

[Maevenniia]

If it will make people happy, call it a nerf.

BUT, acknowledge that under the circumstances (mass producers creating millions of plat), it was a NECESSARY one.

And for the love of Tunare, please don't think it was aimed specifically at one class.

I will repeat - they did not nerf, fix, fold, spindle or mutilate the CLASS, they did it to nerf, fix, etc the PEOPLE using that particular class of toon to exploit and generate Real Life $$$.

That's it. Please, let's be rational about this.

[Inyidd]

Just because some people didn't take advantage of something, doesn't mean there weren't people out there that did.

Just because you can't think of some way to exploit something, doesn't mean that someone else didn't.

The only reason a nerf is a nerf (generally) is because it directly affects the person calling it a nerf.

I will call it a fix if, in my opinion, it's a fix and not a nerf. You can call it a nerf if you want.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Inyidd
I will call it a fix if, in my opinion, it's a fix and not a nerf. You can call it a nerf if you want.

But you can't just ignore the definition of Nerf, and say that "XYZ is not a nerf because it needed to be changed!". The "fix" in this case was a "nerf".

For the most part, in Everquest, the situation doesn't work as you described. Most of the time a beneficial bug is fixed, a "nerf" is the tool used to accomplish the task. Can't have a fix without a nerf. If people are exploiting something, then to stop that, they make it less effective,or not effective at all. (Which is the textboox definition of nerfing)

Calling something a fix, but refusing to believe that it's a nerf is akin to Insisting that you have a Ford Mustang that is not a car.

-Lilosh

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Maevenniia
BUT, acknowledge that under the circumstances (mass producers creating millions of plat), it was a NECESSARY one.

In regards to recent events (Which is not what this rant was specifically aimed at, it just happened to remind me to post this), I can see where One change was made which fits into this.


I can also see where half a dozen changes were made that were really... really.... not as drastic as all that.

And , as a impassioned plea to ALL who read this,

I'd REALLY *REALLY* REALLY like to avoid talking about specifics of any particular changes in this thread. There are plenty of other threads detailing whether XYZ needed to be changed. This thread is dealing with terminology.



-Lilosh

[Inyidd]

Originally posted by Lilosh
Most of the time a beneficial bug is fixed, a "nerf" is the tool used to accomplish the task.

A "beneficial bug" is generally called an "exploit". You can't nerf an exploit, only fix it. Nerf is a term generally applied to a fix that could have been done in a different way less detrimental to the users.

It's no fair redefining the term after the fact.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

A "beneficial bug" is generally called an "exploit".

That can start turning just about everything into an exploit OR a fix as you choose, if you try hard enough. What is a "bug" that is "fixed", and what is a "working as intended" system which is "nerfed" due to a change in ideology? That's a distinction we outside of SOE planning offices really can't make (and even sometimes they can't, as the people making a change may not have an accurate idea of how the current system worked).

Even when they make statements along the lines of "we [SOE] never intended it to work like that", what exactly do they mean? Did they not intend the function of the actual "feature" itself, or just the way the "feature" could be used to power or be powered by an "engine" (in the M:TG sense of the term) which produced a result that they never intended? Then, is it the "feature" that is an exploit, or is it the "engine" as a whole which is an exploit, and the components of it are fine? When the "feature" is changed, does that make it "fixing" a "bug" because it stops the "engine"'s actions, or is it "nerfing" a system because the "feature" itself wasn't the problem, the "engine" was?

-----
Engine: Essentially a combination of actions and abilities which allow some other activity (the powered activity) to be repeated a large number (usually infinitly many) times. The only limiting factor is usually the time required to perform each iteration, and in a finite time situation, this limits the number of iterations of an ideally infinite engine.

[Lothay]

This is your gentle, friendly reminder to play nice.

I don't want to see screams of "Nerf!" and "Fix!" and the like turn into name calling, personal attacks, or other socailly unacceptable behavior.

This is a topic on which each poster has near-reliegious convictions and I'm am disinclined to believe anyone will be swayed to change their position.

As long as the discussion remains civil and conforms to the rules of the site, it can stay. One step over the line, and I'll whack it with my Enchantress of Doom Closing Stick.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Inyidd
A "beneficial bug" is generally called an "exploit". You can't nerf an exploit, only fix it. Nerf is a term generally applied to a fix that could have been done in a different way less detrimental to the users.

It's no fair redefining the term after the fact.

Not all beneficial bugs are exploits.


If a group of people get used to doing Quest A in a particular way, because that is the way the quest was figured out, and then Sony changes it to not be possible , claiming that "We never intended XYZ", does that mean that everyone who discovered the quest or did the quest the "wrong way" was exploiting?

We'll assume for a moment that we're not talking about a monumentally "Merchant sells this item for 1cp" kind of "beneficial bug".

Perhaps I should rephrase. Instead of

Most of the time a beneficial bug is fixed, a "nerf" is the tool used to accomplish the task.

I will say

When Sony decides to fix something that players are benefitting from, a "nerf" is the tool used to accomplish the task.

Basically, We cannot assume that everything beneficial to us is an exploit. When something beneficial gets changed, it's natural to call it a nerf, since it has been made less effective, or not at all.


-Lilosh

[Inyidd]

Well, to clarify my position, I consider a nerf to be any detrimental change (from a players perspective) to something that was at the level it was intended to be at originally.

Which, reading it again, doesn't clarify much.

If they intended something to be where it is, but are changing it because they realize that it could be used in a way they hadn't intended, or to cheap their way out of some other exploit, then I would consider that a nerf.

If, however, they set something up and it turns out that it's not what they had intended in the first place (i.e., vendor buy back prices are too high/low), I consider that a fix.

Oh...and to clarify something else (being to general sometimes is a fault of mine), any beneficial bug that players can use to their own advantage is an exploit. If players can't take advantage of it, it's probably not a beneficial bug anyway.

[Cigarskunk]

Difference between an exploit/bug and a non-exploit being fixed and nerfed -

Exploit - you use something in a way that wasn't loggically intended - ie/taking advantage of a mob's pathing patterns or the cheese sell back prices

Bug - something does something unexpected - ie/Absor's blue proccing sword that instant kills blue mobs

Non-exploit - A clever use of a valid ability - ie/FD pulling - the designers never intended this when they put in FD

Sadly, the difference between an bug/exploit and simply thinking outside of the box is usually rather subjective - I'm sure that many of the classes that were designed to pacify or mez in order to help pull mobs out of groups felt that FD pulling was an exploit at the time - it ultimately comes down to one's perspective.

I might view Lilo's nerf as a fix just as he might view one of my valid complaints as a mear dead horse.

So what was nerfed/fixed anyway?

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Cigarskunk
I might view Lilo's nerf as a fix just as he might view one of my valid complaints as a mear dead horse.

I am not a disney character, Sir. Please don't cut off the last two letters of my name. I got soo much grief when that move came out, it makes me twitch.

Originally posted by Cigarskunk
So what was nerfed/fixed anyway?

Originally posted by Lilosh
I'd REALLY *REALLY* REALLY like to avoid talking about specifics of any particular changes in this thread. There are plenty of other threads detailing whether XYZ needed to be changed. This thread is dealing with terminology.



-Lilosh

[eqNichola]

Disallowing us from talking about specifics makes it hard to debate the point. Lilosh appears to be saying that any change that negatively affects a player should be called a nerf. Others appear to be saying that only certain changes are nerfs, whereas others are fixes. Obviously this requires reference to cases.

Here are some old changes that hopefully are 'historical' enough to avoid raising anyone's ire too much. A mix of tradeskill-related and non-tradeskill-related.

Cheese
Shark meat
Donal's bp of infinite Complete Healing
Tumpy tonics
Primary-wieldable Mosscovered Twig
Pie tins

Presumably Lilosh's position is that all the changes here were nerfs. Anyone who would say the changes were fixes, here are some specific cases for you to argue your point on. Nicely.