What is it with Verant and Enchanters? [Archive]

Iannyen

12-17-2002, 12:39 PM

Lilosh:

blessed sickle blade:
sheet metal, smithy hammer, celestial essence, blessed dust of tunare, emerald, mistletoe temper, curved blade mold
(Trivial 183)

blessed sickle pommel: sheet metal, smithy hammer, celestial essence, sapphire, blessed dust of tunare, mistletoe temper, pommel mold
(Trivial 182)

blessed sickle hilt: sheet metal, smithy hammer, celestial essence, ruby, blessed dust of tunare, mistletoe temper, hilt mold
(Trivial 180)

Mistletoe cutting sickle blessed sickle blade, blessed sickle hilt, blessed sickle pommel, smithy hammer

1HS, 8/22, WIS 5, mana 20, sv magic 5, wt 5.4, DRU/ALL, recommended level 20
(Trivial >250)

...so you can be the worlds greatest smithy without ever touching an enchanted piece of anything. Of course you do have to find a Druid to Imbue a ton of emeralds for you...

:twisted: But Druids don't really hold any cards in the ol' tradeskilling game, now, do they...(*cough*forrage*cough*track*cough*port*coug h*SoW*cough*) :twisted:

Dvinn:
I don't think that its too much of a stretch to expect enchanters to enchant some metal. Most of the ones I know (myself included) are more than happy to help out, provided we get a little notice. I happily enchanted a full stack of velium for a friend, for free, even knowing that he would be making Jewelry that would be competing with my sales. But he was polite and offered to pay for my time ( I accepted nothing), and we did it when it was convinent for both of us.

Also, you made no mention about having the Mephit Blood, Metallic Liquid, or other uber-rare drop required to make the diamond, or even the raw diamonds themselves. I am a little curious as to exactly what you offered the enchanter for his/her services....

And if you feel that you shouldn't have to pay for an enchanter's services, then use one of your 8 character slots to roll one up, and level him/her to 62 where we get the chance to make a spell using ultra rare components. Shouldn't be too hard. :roll:

kuronekosama

12-17-2002, 12:50 PM

I soooooooooooooooo hate this. I'm a gm human smith and a warrior to boot. For heraldic armor I go through tons of enchanted bricks. Now, I do have the option of getting to 242 with imbued field plate, but again it's imbued so I have to find a cleric/shammy/druid. My cost of ore because of this more than doubles because I have to make an offer attractive enough to get a chanter to do it for me. Essentially I pay 43pp per brick which unenchanted costs 18pp. That doesn't count me paying for them to get a KEI and giving them a copy of the spell if they don't have it. Fortunately heraldic is profitable enough - it's not the cost that bothers me. Heck, I'd be willing to pay double what I do now if I could get it from a vendor. Ah well.

Lilosh

12-17-2002, 01:36 PM

...so you can be the worlds greatest smithy without ever touching an enchanted piece of anything. Of course you do have to find a Druid to Imbue a ton of emeralds for you...

Ya know, I knew someone was going to bring that up. :twisted:

I count imbuing as putting a small bit of your Gods Power/Essence into a stone. Which I kind of group in the same category as enchanting.

My point was that normal metal is not going to get you to to the pinacle of smithing. Whether your metal has been enchanted by magic, or you are using dust kissed by the gods, Your metal needs to be extraordinary.

At least, this is how I view it.

-Lilosh

Iannyen

12-17-2002, 02:22 PM

..thats why I added the admission that the emeralds (billiunz of em) had to be imbued. My big point (the big picture if you will) is that you could very easily make a case for most of the classes when it comes to having some sort of edge for tradeskills (except for maybe the Human Warrior, sorry man, that really does make it hard, except for the fact that eventually, you do get to make some of the best armor that isnt dropped in the game...), be they Druid, Ranger, Necro, Enchanter, Beastlord or whatever...

What is important is that we all share a debatably maniacial affectation for self imposed carpal tunnel syndrome and endless timesinks, and that we should always try to help each other rather than to eek out or undercut our fellow tradeskillers. Let Uberguild_003 and Wannabeuberguild_002 fight about who is better at what, and lets try to better ourselves by not saying "soandso" has it sooo easy. Thats all I'm trying to say.

Dvinn

12-17-2002, 02:33 PM

You gotta understand what's going on here. 62+ enchanters are generally doing one of two things. Either selling kei in the bazaar or grouping in PoP. Either way, most cannot, or will not help during these times.

Putting enchanters and other tradespeople in this position makes no sense to me, the amount of lost time and frustration this produces is absurd.

sumamael

12-17-2002, 02:33 PM

It's in the enchanters' class definition alright, I can live with that.

However the level requirements and the mana cost is NOT fun. :?

I find it amusing that an enchanter can keep an 800 hitter giant charmed in BoT from less mana than to enchant some bricks of metal :roll:

Lilosh

12-17-2002, 03:42 PM

I find it amusing that an enchanter can keep an 800 hitter giant charmed in BoT from less mana than to enchant some bricks of metal :roll:

I've met an enchanter or two who used no mana, but had me charmed all right.

:twisted:

-Lilosh

kiztent

12-17-2002, 03:59 PM

My point was that normal metal is not going to get you to to the pinacle of smithing. Whether your metal has been enchanted by magic, or you are using dust kissed by the gods, Your metal needs to be extraordinary.

-Lilosh

Yes, but when the best soloing class, most necessary class for groups AND raids, yea, even the class with the most profitable buffs is ALSO the roadblock for high level smithing, there's a problem (especially when enchanting a block of ore takes as much mana as KEI, and KEI retails for 100pp).

What's wrong with having a mage able to summon primal blocks of metallic energy that have to be properly worked by a smith before their essence fades?

It's not like no rent components aren't used in smithing, and all the other mage summons are just as good as the real thing, bar the no rent component (some are pretty unique, never mind mod rods). Personally, I'm all about interdependance, but the fact that enchanters sit and roadblock everything in EQ right now is completely unbalanced.

Moraganth

12-17-2002, 04:20 PM

Same rant, different week.

Yes, but when the best soloing class

You have us confused with necros.. again /hates that when it happens

is ALSO the roadblock for high level smithing

Go with making sickels... then the druids can be your roadblock.

What's wrong with having a mage able to summon primal blocks of metallic energy that have to be properly worked by a smith before their essence fades?

You think finding a mage is going to be easier? Mage population has shrunk a bit the past some odd months, my guess is their fewer of them than willing chanters per server. Also, it's not in their class descriptions.

Personally, I'm all about interdependance, but the fact that enchanters sit and roadblock everything in EQ right now is completely unbalanced.

We don't.. there are ways in most tradeskills to max out without the need of a chanter. You simply don't want to take them.

Sorry, but this is just the same rant that keeps coming up over and over again. You don't require a chanter to max skill... you only need them to make certain things. As there class description calls for them to be capable of making magical items, and the name "enchanter" kinda implies that a little (how odd), what is it you expect.

Shaman Arriana

12-17-2002, 05:05 PM

You have us confused with necros.. again /hates that when it happens

No, he has enchanters right on the head. Necros don't go to the halls of honor and solo their way to 15 AA per day. Enchanters do.

Lothay

12-17-2002, 05:10 PM

Please do not turn this into a class-bashing thread.

~ Lothay

Angelsyn

12-17-2002, 05:26 PM

Why do we need enchanters to make so much in PoP? Distilled mana at 200 per pop to make one enchanted planar metal? Imbue diamond spell costing 1000 mana per cast????????? Does Verant actually think echanters want any part of this horror show?

darn it, I've had 7 nightmare tempers in my packs for about 3 weeks now, and I CAN"T FIND ANY ENCHANTERS TO HELP ME MAKE THE DIAMONDS. I AM FED UP ONCE AGAIN. THANK YOU VERANT FOR NOTHING...{Threat removed - yes it was a MILD one, but a threat nonetheless. - Ngreth}

Let's see... As I recall, to make the "Imbue Nightmare" spell only requires the Nightmare Mephit Blood drop, the Raw Diamond & the Imbue Diamond spell... a combine that anyone can do, since it's No Fail.

Now, Enchanters aren't the only class that can scribe and cast this spell!!!!

Thank you.

Doomspark Deathfire

12-17-2002, 05:29 PM

Obviously y'all are playing on the wrong servers.

Come over to Tarew Marr. My 'chanter is a tradeskill junkie and will happily enchant ores and metals for you. See my post in the Tarew Marr Marketplace forum.

sumamael

12-17-2002, 05:48 PM

You have us confused with necros.. again /hates that when it happens

I hate that too when everyone is pointing at the necros as the best soloing class. Heck I see rangers and druids soloing better than a necro in PoP.
It wasn't a necro who soloed Wuoshi, it was an enchanter. Those aren't necros who solo dragons in WW, those are shamans and lately uber SKs and Clerics.

Did you know that the highest level mob what we can land fear on is level 53? Necros' ultimate solo power stops at the unfearable and summoning mobs.

Thank you for listening.

kiztent

12-17-2002, 10:23 PM

What's wrong with having a mage able to summon primal blocks of metallic energy that have to be properly worked by a smith before their essence fades?

You think finding a mage is going to be easier? Mage population has shrunk a bit the past some odd months, my guess is their fewer of them than willing chanters per server. Also, it's not in their class descriptions.

Without discussing whether or not it would be easier to find a mage, all I can say is for a mage I won't have to pay KEI rates for my mana.

xaanru

12-18-2002, 03:15 PM

Well, the one person I can address, is the human smith. Go with imbued field plate for skiling up. Ever since the PoTC quest came out imbued plains paebbles are a nearly cnstantly sold item in the bazaar.

My rule is, buy only when the price is below 5pp. I can usually pick up 100+ a week at this price, without really trying (I also make lucky cabbage). The reasons I'm not really trying is thta my human smith has imbue rose quartz, and so I skill up on ero marr armor.

Anyway, skilling on the ENCHANTED full plate is a horrible waste. Wastes a ton of time and money making and combining the enchanted ore into blocks then sheets. and it wastes a royal temper that can eventually be used for heraldic armor.

Of course, there is the unenchanted full plate to skill on, which can take you at least to 230, but thats still a waste of temper. the essence of sunlight is much harder to get than the sea temper ingredients, IMO

Veldin Darkfire

12-18-2002, 06:54 PM

As a mage I would be happy to have an ability that people wanted / needed for tradeskills. I like summoning things and whatnot :P

Veldin

Elara Triage

12-18-2002, 09:51 PM

Okay I will get in on this one....

I agree that an enchanter by their name should be involved with enchanting. I can even concede that they should be the only ones to enchant the metals for high-end smithing.

However what I think everyone can agree with is that it takes so MUCH metal to do 1 combine. If I want to make Koada'Dal Greaves I need 9 count them 9 bricks of mithril enchanted. From my experience that is between 75-100% of a enchanters mana bar. That is for 1 combine success or failure one. Which depending on your Mana regen at the time is like 4-10 minutes to have enough metal for 1 combine.

That is BS....If they could at least enchant Blocks! That at least would speed up the process some. Is that too much to ask?

Iannyen

12-19-2002, 07:00 AM

maddenus

12-19-2002, 07:25 AM

My 2 cp is that I agree that the mana cost is rediculous I dont mind clerics and drus imbueing, and ENchanters err um enchanting. I think that they have to pay too much mana though.

kiztent

12-19-2002, 08:22 AM

...what about adding the option to enchant the metals using vials of mana?
So maybe the bricks could either be hand chanted or you could buy the vials of distilled mana for, say, 250pp (I think thats the going rate for the 2 sapphire vial) a pop and try and make a combine in a forge with around 134 trivial. Would that make other people happy?

No, it would not make me happy. 18 sapphires added to my cost to ATTEMPT a breast plate (doubled for mana markups unless I have a pocket enchanter)? 1200pp-3600pp to ATTEMPT a skill up? Completely, totally and unutterably unacceptable. It would be orders of magnitude cheaper to do sickles to skill up - even after you tied up a druid and forced them to imbue until their eyes bled.

Vial of viscous mana would be acceptable. Clear mana, possibly.

Don't forget that people that aren't already 250 that are skilling up on cultural (the ones that need the ore enchanted) are making something that's getting to be pretty close to unsellable. BD smiths could easily bear the cost (but shouldn't), especially since they require one third the enchanted ore per combine.

The problem isn't that I need other people to work on tradeskills. The problem is 2 fold:

1 - The class that I need for nearly every attempt is also the best soloing class, essential for groups, and essential for raids. This same class also has the most salable buff. This results in severe gougery as I have to offer more money than could be made by any of the other alternatives that an enchanter has. Like the large brick of enchanted adamantium for 400pp in the Bazaar last night. If I'd seen it for sale before I'd be less outraged.

2 - The mana costs are plain flat out excessive for enchanting.

So, what would be a solution? Move some of the functionality to another class. Either move the mana regen and charm/mez lines to another class (if enchanters were less desired for groups and raids they would be more likely to enchant for people at reasonable rates), or move the tradeskill blocking to another class (mages make the most sense, and they tend to be perceived as less desirable for raids and groups, but are still decent soloers - they are also a good fit, since they can summon magical items, including items that focus spells).

Cantatus

12-19-2002, 08:53 AM

The problem is it doesn't matter how many classes they give enchant/imbue spells to, unless they gave it to your class there would still be no garuntee that you'd have an easier time finding someone to enchant for you. Quite frankly, I doubt you'd find another class that actually wanted to be able to enchant.

Don't get mad at Enchanters though for not wanting to enchant. Would you honestly want to drop everything for 10mins so you can repeatedly use up your mana and have to meditate it back only to use it again.

I like the idea of being able to use manavials to enchant things. They stack, they aren't heavy and they could be made to be used in several recipes. Honestly, speaking as an Enchanter, I'd like it a lot better if someone could give me a stack of poison vials and pearls to make into mana vials rather than having someone give me a backpack with 10 blocks in it. I'd at least be able to make the manavials more at my leisure whereas I'd have to enchant the ore just so I had room on me again.

This still reinforces class interdependancy since you still need an Enchanter to make manavials. In my opinion though it works out better for both the Enchanter (as stated above) and the tradeskiller. The tradeskiller then has the option of using the mana vials to enchant whatever they want.

However, I do think in past recipes Verant has been way too reliant on having stuff be Enchanted. The old cultural was absolutely horrendous. Four-Nine bricks of Enchanted ore for one combine. There were often times when I was sitting in Felwithe after one breastplate attempt out of mana.

At least PoP got it right and you only need an Enchanter to make you one thing for almost every combine and you can use the same mana vial to enchant several different items.

kiztent

12-19-2002, 10:12 AM

The problem is it doesn't matter how many classes they give enchant/imbue spells to, unless they gave it to your class there would still be no garuntee that you'd have an easier time finding someone to enchant for you. Quite frankly, I doubt you'd find another class that actually wanted to be able to enchant.

I don't suspect another class would WANT to enchant, especially given the current mana costs, but pretty much any other class will have fewer demands on their time.

Compare, sometime, the requests in the bazaar, plane of knowlege or nexus for KEI versus ports or rezzes (either of the last 2 can be serviced by 2 classes as well - yes I know the percent on paladin rezzes). Consider that aside from those 5 classes (enchanters, druids, wizards, clerics, paladins), no other class has any other use for mana while in the bazaar. Before you point out that KEI is a level 60 spell, check my server.

Don't get mad at Enchanters though for not wanting to enchant. Would you honestly want to drop everything for 10mins so you can repeatedly use up your mana and have to meditate it back only to use it again.

No, I don't blame enchanters as a class. There are the individual crackbots that I don't particularily care for, but as a whole I don't dislike any class. What I dislike is that my smithing is very restricted because of enchanters many other roles that make it even more difficult to enchant. I also dislike the sheerly staggering mana cost (which translates to plat, lots of plat) of getting the items I need to smith made.

The current status quo has passed beyond interdependance into yet another stupid unnecessary bottleneck because of all the other utility functions enchanters have.

Glatius2

12-19-2002, 10:35 AM

The current status quo has passed beyond interdependance into yet another stupid unnecessary bottleneck because of all the other utility functions enchanters have.

Well yeah. If you're trying to do a couple of dozen skill up attempts at something and have managed to overcome the PITA collecting/paying for all the other materials are and you're stuck at needing an enchantement of some kind, its frustrating as hell.

Yes there are some alternatives. But some are even less attractive. I hate depending on someone else for my progress in my trade skill. I hate even more depending on someone else for my progress who can easily make much more plat than I can ever possibly hope to compensate them for do something else entirely.

Boleslav

12-19-2002, 01:57 PM

You can get to 250 in smithing without having anything enchanted or imbued. Shadowscream Steel armor will take you there and you won't have to bug a chanter, cleric, or druid once.

On the down side, it takes 10 bricks of enchanted ore for an old school breastplate. You were forgetting the chain jointing.

So no smith is beholden to an enchanter to skill up. However, to make things that people actually want to BUY…

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 56th Campaign
E'ci - The Twilight Fellowship
Blacksmithing - 250 (and not one skillup required a chanter)

kiztent

12-19-2002, 03:38 PM

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 56th Campaign
E'ci - The Twilight Fellowship
Blacksmithing - 250 (and not one skillup required a chanter)

So what was your skill before the change in plate trivials Boleslav?

Angelsyn

12-19-2002, 10:57 PM

You can get to 250 in smithing without having anything enchanted or imbued. Shadowscream Steel armor will take you there and you won't have to bug a chanter, cleric, or druid once.

Try farming Shadowscream components as a Cleric, buddy.

Dunthor Warsmith

12-20-2002, 04:38 AM

I do shadowscream for skill. Royal pain, yes (paladin). But its easier than trying to work with enchanters for ages and ages to get the brellium enchanted for old cultural. I make old cultural for sale in the bazaar - I never have much up for sale, because I find it such a huge hassle to get the enchanter to enchant 10+ bricks per 3 sheet attempt (trivials failures on enchanted ore <i>really</i> suck. I mostly do 3sheet items because 1 sheet, and some 2 sheet items have been driven down to around cost for 1 attempt). I've had some velium and blue diamonds sitting on me for about a week. I've been wanting to make a few more BD attempts to upgrade my armor. Reason I haven't? Its far too much trouble to find the enchanter.

I don't have anything against enchanters - I actually know a handful of rather nice ones. The game has just been sculpted in such a way that a) enchanting ore takes a large quantity of time from the enchanter b) its not something which is feasible to do in small quantities at their leasure (heavy, nonstacking) c) enchanters have numerous profitable ways to spend their time, making it even harder to get ore enchanted.

I don't use Enchanted armors as a skillup route. I've looked at it - excluding the enchanter, its one of the best routes available to me (only thing close is shadowscream - cheaper, but much more time consuming). Add the enchanting back in and it swings to the other end of the spectrum - getting hte masses of ore enchanted is just too expensive, time consuming, and troublesome. So I use old cultural as a means of financial gain - sell slow and high on what few pieces I can to try and finance my BD cultural experiments.

... its far too late for me to try to write anything coherent ... sorry for the ramble.

Iannyen

12-20-2002, 07:14 AM

Kiztent, I am assuming that by your replies you would either expect enchanted metals to be available in unlimited quantities on vendors, to be able to buy vials of mana (cheap ones) off of vendors?

I'm sorry that you can't find anyone willing to sit and enchant a few (I'm assuming that it was a few, not 10 backpacks worth) bricks of metal.

Please keep in mind that an Enchanters time is atleast as valuable to the chanter him/herself as it is to you, and ultimately, what they decide to do with that time is completely their discression.

;) I cast Clarity for free to anyone in the zone who wants to come to me.
Same with Brilliance and Insight for tradeskillers. And CHA buffs for people wanting to sell after a hard nite of killing. I enchant jewelry metal for free, clay for free, and 2 days from now, smithing metal for free (Dinged 48 last nite). ;)

:( But please don't blame SoE, or the Enchanter community as a whole, for being a bottleneck. I'm reasonably sure that "we" have no intentions of being a bottleneck. Several options outside of enchanted metal smithing have been given, and they were unacceptable to use for you, and I'm sorry for that too. :(

:idea: :idea: On a personal note, I do not believe (though I freely admit that I did it this way for Jewelcraft) that tradeskills were designed with mass production in mind. My personal beliefe is that they intended a smithy (for example) to take an order for a piece of armor at a skill level well below trivial, and make a few attempts at it. If they got a skillup in the process, then that represents a smithy learning his trade. But I doubt they intended fpr people to sit down with 4 packs of metal sheet, 4 packs of padding, and churn out breastplates for 4 hours, only to turn around and hammer them into plowshares....

Boleslav

12-20-2002, 08:09 AM

Angelsyn,

I re-read my post after seeing your reaction to it, as well as one other. I didn't mean to come across so 'smarmy'. I realize that Shadowscream is very difficult to gather components for. I only gained 8 points using it, and that took just under a month. My intended point was that there is a way to increase smithing without using enchanters or other classes, not that it was an easy way.

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 56th Campaign
E'ci - The Twilight Fellowship

Brodybeard

12-20-2002, 08:42 AM

I would like to see Sony give Clerics the ability to "bless" metals and "invoke" vials of concentrated mana.

The "Bless Metal" spells would actually produce the same enchanted metal as the equivalent Enchanter "Enchant Metal" spell and the "Invoke Mana" spells would product vials of mana identical to the Enchanter-made vials.

It would give clerics something to do beyond being walking first aid kits. 8)

kiztent

12-20-2002, 08:44 AM

Kiztent, I am assuming that by your replies you would either expect enchanted metals to be available in unlimited quantities on vendors, to be able to buy vials of mana (cheap ones) off of vendors?

No, nothing of the sort. I want a reasonable ability to get the items I need to smith. The ability to make a reasonable profit skilling up wouldn't be bad, but at this point I really don't care. Needing 3.5 large bricks of ore enchanted for a total of 1100 mana in order to attempt a skill up is unreasonable. Requiring 3.5 vials of viscous mana at 350 mana is ok - especially since a level 12 enchanter is required versus a level 49 one. 3.5 vials of the 2 sapphire mana is not ok, unless the item sells for enough to justify the expense.

The problem isn't just that it requires a level 49 enchanter, it's that a level 49 enchanter has better things to do than crank out enchanted ore in skill up quantities.

Unlike jewelcraft, where you can make items at a small loss to skill up, OR invest the mana to make potentially profitable items, smithing has no such choice. The items REQUIRE an enchanter. The only items that don't are (1) dependant on a broken zone war to obtain in skill up quantities and (2) no drop or no rent.

The concept of throwing enough money at smithing to skill up does not exist - unlike every other tradeskill there is. You cannot purchase shadowscream components, and you must have an enchanter or druid/cleric for any other skill up attempt. As simply as possible, there is NO OTHER TRADESKILL that requires this. None. Any tradeskill that cannot be skilled to 250 from vendor bought components can be skilled to 250 from dropped items - except smithing.

I'm sorry that you can't find anyone willing to sit and enchant a few (I'm assuming that it was a few, not 10 backpacks worth) bricks of metal.

Well, for making spot items for sale it's a few (actually it's not, I used up a hour of a 58 enchanter's time for 4 cultural combines, yielding 3 pieces of armour - the enchanted blocks are not ready for smithing, and require 2 more subcombines before they are (large -> blocks -> folded sheets or large -> rings -> jointing), with the usual chance of trivial failures along the way.

Please keep in mind that an Enchanters time is atleast as valuable to the chanter him/herself as it is to you, and ultimately, what they decide to do with that time is completely their discression.

:( But please don't blame SoE, or the Enchanter community as a whole, for being a bottleneck. I'm reasonably sure that "we" have no intentions of being a bottleneck. Several options outside of enchanted metal smithing have been given, and they were unacceptable to use for you, and I'm sorry for that too. :(

How can you say that the enchanters time is theirs to use as they will, then not let me blame SoE for giving the enchanters many times many better things to do with their time? You can't have that both ways. I place the blame squarely and completely on Sony for shattering the smithing progression, leaving smithing with the already 250 and everyone else and no path to bridge the 2.

And actually an enchanters time is more valuable to them than it is to me, since enchanters are highly desired for groups and raids, as well as being the best soloers, whereas the armour I require an enchanter to make doesn't sell for an appreciable amount of money, so I cannot pay for their time without taking murderous losses in the process - again, completely unlike any other tradeskill. Tailoring, the main tradeskill with dropped components, still allows for profit even if you are being severely gouged on the player salable components (check material costs for acrylia studded cloaks versus sale price - studded wyvern hides versus mask prices isn't quite as good).

On a personal note, I do not believe (though I freely admit that I did it this way for Jewelcraft) that tradeskills were designed with mass production in mind.

I believe that too, but unless there is a way to gain skill besides mass producing armour, I don't really have a choice - my rant is about having CHOICES in smithing. I don't mean choices between which character class will hold your progress in smithing hostage, I mean real, legitimate choices that will allow for skilling up. I got rid of my last smithed piece of armour a month or two ago, and until I can make blue diamond cultural, I have no use for anything I smith. And until I have a reasonable means to mass produce the items I need to skill up (or I get a skill up for every non-trivial attempt, all the same to me), I will continue to complain.

Glatius2

12-20-2002, 08:59 AM

On a personal note, I do not believe (though I freely admit that I did it this way for Jewelcraft) that tradeskills were designed with mass production in mind.

Perhaps not. However if this is true then the expectation was also that no one would ever reach 250 skill within the foreseeable life of the game. Once you get to 188 you still need 62 skill ups to hit 250. At an average of 20 combines per skill up that would be 1,240 combines not including subcombines. Now how exactly did they expect us to do 1,240 combines? One or two a week?

At an average of 5 combines per week it would take you 248 weeks to get to 250. Or almost 5 years.

Of course we're going to mass produce armor as much as we can, because the alternative is to never succeed in our goal.

Iannyen

12-20-2002, 09:28 AM

We all desire to reach 250. I plan on doing it in every skill available to my enchanter. But the most pleasure I get out of Tradeskilling is when I make something for sale purposes only, and get a skillup from it. And I believe the main purpose of tradeskills is to produce a piece of equipment or product, not a numeric level.

As far as the 250 skill, I am not convinced it was supposed to be reached. Once you hit the top, there is nowhere to go, and nothing to learn (hehe, except a new skill).

On that note, my personal preferences should never be applied as a global consensus, and they are not intended as such. I don't expect anyone to think the same way I do. Frankly, I'd be a little freaked out if they did. And I fully support your complaint, or atleast your right to complain when you feel frustrated.

My previous post was for clarification purposes only, not to start an argument. I understand your frustration. Iannyen (my main) started as a pocket chanter for my then main, a Human Paladin. , and a miserable smith.

As to the level restriction, I have no problem to lowering the smithing metal enchants to a lower level, even 8-16. Clay is at this level, so is silver. Nothing would be lost to this in the form of a game mechanic or a class definition. Heck, SoE would probably make a ton more money, with every smith opening a second account to keep their pocket chanter on... :D

Glatius2

12-20-2002, 10:52 AM

And I believe the main purpose of tradeskills is to produce a piece of equipment or product, not a numeric level.

Well yes, I agree with this. However to have a reasonable chance of succeeding in producing a piece of equipment or product that is desirable, you need a certain numeric level. One has a direct correlation to the other. I'd like to succeed on my tries on high end armor. If I could feel comfortable at skill 200 that I would do so, I'd stop skilling up. Since I can't, I have to continue working on it.

Iannyen

12-20-2002, 11:04 AM

...so we are in agreement that the numeric value assigned to the skill level is secondary to the "tradeskilled product" being made?

I think we spend too much time trying to get to 250 and not enough time actually taking pride in our work.

Prime example: I found 6 Acrylia Studs on an NPC one night, for 6pp each.
I constantly find Ohabah (sp?) Truffles, filets of lion/wolf/bear on NPC's by the oven.
That stuff sells in Bazaar, and I take pride in selling what I skill up on.

My 2 cents.

I do apologize for derailing the previous enchanter rant.

I hate enchanters. Boo. Down with Chan.. HEY!

kiztent

12-20-2002, 01:38 PM

...so we are in agreement that the numeric value assigned to the skill level is secondary to the "tradeskilled product" being made?

I think we spend too much time trying to get to 250 and not enough time actually taking pride in our work.

That's another rant, let's not go there, shall we?

I took pride in making banded, in August of 2001 when I could sell it - I even wore a piece or two until I got better. I took pride in the fine plate I made, though no one ever bought that. I took a lot of pride in the imbued chain I made before the trivial changes with 190 skill and no geerlok. I took a bit of pride in the adamantium plate I made, though it ended up on the trader soon after as I started getting thurn quested.

I can't see anyone taking any pride in making banded or fine plate these days. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone taking much pride in old cultural, nor in acrylia. I'd fall dead from an attack of laughter if I saw anyone taking pride in making shadowscream armour.

If smithed armour was worth making, people could take pride in it. But every combine you do for a long, long time is destined for the vendor, or maybe your trader if you feel like hanging on to it for months waiting to sell (I made 3 e. marr imbued arms, and 1 e. marr imbued face mask with my human smith months ago - after spending a month trying to track down a priest who could do some imbues. I've sold one set of arms).

Of course, if it was worth making, everyone would make it. Until it was worthless. Unless it is harder to get than drops of corresponding quality. Verant errs on the side of caution and makes it much harder to make anything salable (see Sumamael's comments on the legendary armour).

Lilosh

12-20-2002, 02:21 PM

I can't see anyone taking any pride in making banded or fine plate these days. .

My Halfling Druid, who has worked his way to 140ish smithing, recently made a full suit of visible Banded for my twink rogue.

When he put it on, I was amazed at how cool I looked.

I ran around PoK showing people, and bragging about my first suit of armor that I had smithed MYSELF. And people were either acting impressed to play along, or were sharing in my enthusiasm.

I didnt get a single OMG U N00B BANDED SUX.

And then, a week or two later, a guildie started a Barb Shaman. She needed a full set of Banded from me. I made it, and she thanked me profusely. I even got a tell her a few minutes later, saying how much better she was able to Melee because of it.

Granted, I am not impressed because I made UBAH armor , that can slay dragons and clean itself via magic.

I am impressed and thrilled because *I* made this armor, and wearing a full visible suit of something looks cool to me.

Hardly Uber,
Lilosh

Iannyen

12-20-2002, 03:05 PM

I'll echo what Lilosh said. My Pally was so proud of his Gold Ornate Chain suit that he wore it around, and put better armor in the Bank. I had fun running around in Armor that I made.

And remember that banded, plate and chain got you to the level that you can attempt the cultural, so thats at least something to be proud of.

They have a name for craftsmen who don't care for what they make, and that don't take pride in their work.

Unemployed.

Arou

12-20-2002, 03:26 PM

And then, a week or two later, a guildie started a Barb Shaman. She needed a full set of Banded from me. I made it, and she thanked me profusely. I even got a tell her a few minutes later, saying how much better she was able to Melee because of it.

I know this sounds old fashioned, but if you check the stats on Banded armor, you will find it still stands out as excellent for the cost and difficulty. Sure, your high level character can probably spend chunks of cash and hours of grinding to get some basic gear to suppliment a twink. But if you just want to throw together a character and try it out, Banded is an excellent choice. I have started every alt I ever had with the few pieces of useful gear I had lying around and filled the rest of their slots with Banded. And a class appropriate weapon and a buff and you can solo to 10th or 15th easily.

Its effective. Its cheap enough to give away if you want. Its easy to make. It looks pretty cool. got banded? :)

kiztent

12-20-2002, 09:57 PM

Its effective. Its cheap enough to give away if you want. Its easy to make. It looks pretty cool. got banded? :)

I use black alloy myself, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Shaman Arriana

12-21-2002, 05:29 AM

Most of these problems would be solved if VI would:

1) Reduce the ruinous mana cost on the enchant spells
2) Move them somewhere considerably more convenient (this mostly pertains to the mana vial spells)

I was trying to find an enchanter to make purified vials so I could make a seal for my GM smithing hammer. I had the rubies, I had the poison vials...I SPOKE TO FOURTEEN ENCHANTERS BEFORE I FOUND ONE WHO OWNED THE SPELL. That's beyond normal levels of frustration.

I'm just very thankful that barbarian cultural does not touch on anything that requires enchanting, and that as a shaman, I can do my own gem imbues.

Xeni Vidivici

12-21-2002, 08:42 AM

The mana cost was halved some time ago, and while it is annoying I (being a chanter) don't have much of a problem enchanting vials or metals, just don't bug me when I'm in a tough zone mezzing stuff. Ask me when I have some time and then get back to me, I got some very happy customers who buy vials on a regular basis, remember that making vials is one of the easiest way for a chanter to generate some cash.

Unidin

12-21-2002, 01:48 PM

I was trying to find an enchanter to make purified vials so I could make a seal for my GM smithing hammer. I had the rubies, I had the poison vials...I SPOKE TO FOURTEEN ENCHANTERS BEFORE I FOUND ONE WHO OWNED THE SPELL. That's beyond normal levels of frustration.

Then buy the spell. That's how I got most of my clay line of enchant spells. The brownies in Lfay sell them, I think doggie illusion works (earth elemental does for sure), or check the bazaar.

Yalum

12-21-2002, 04:38 PM

Now there's a particularly cruel joke. Putting a spell line many chanters don't work on a merchant only chanters can use. I'd have to kill half the brownie town to get that vendor to talk to me, and I'm lucky I've got sneak...

KyrosKrane

12-22-2002, 04:48 AM

I can't see anyone taking any pride in making banded or fine plate these days. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone taking much pride in old cultural, nor in acrylia. I'd fall dead from an attack of laughter if I saw anyone taking pride in making shadowscream armour.

I'd strongly disagree with your statement here. I'm an amateur smith -- which is to say, I've mastered banded, but I have nowhere near the finances needed to proceed beyond that. I take great pride and pleasure in my ability to make banded.

I still advertise and sell banded on a regular basis. For some ten levels centered around 16 or so, I wore banded armor as my main. For another 5 levels beyond that, I kept a full suit of banded in the bank for emergencies.

Banded is superb armor for untwinked characters just starting out. At 1pp per AC, it's affordable around level 12 and up. It's far superior to other store-bought armor at comparable prices.

I guess my point is that just because banded isn't uber-armor, don't think it's not good. Remember that there are multiple levels in the game, and at lower levels, you can't afford or can't get uber-crafted or quested armor. Heck, I wore patchwork up until level 10 or so, simply because I didn't know any better!

ObEnchanters:
Is there any armor at all that currently uses mana vials, other than the tailored Wu's? If not, then Wu makes a nice precedent for using mana vials on armor.

Moraganth

12-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Yalum.. actually, anyone with an illusion spell / item can use the brownie vendors. Also, they're not on faction with all the other brownies, so you can slaughter the camp without mercy, then sell all the loot to their vendors (the irony). Generally chanters that don't have the spell aren't tradeskill oriented, so simply don't waste the pp on them.

As for other things needing mana vials.. the first thing was Wu's gloves.. then the rest of the Wu's set when it came out. Fleeting Quiver does, and the veliuos furs.. othmir, holgresh, and hound. Then ice burrower silks... that's for tailoring.

On a side note, with the reduced mana costs.. i can actually make 10 vials of distilled mana on a full bar now! woot!.. course, kei and bard song helped...

To anyone that really feels like chanters are THE roadblock to tradeskills, the answer is simple... make one for yourself. That is the ULTIMATE way to ensure you have a chanter at your beck and call any time you want. Unless you're on FV server, you have no excuse not too.

Interestingly, as a quote from one of thier first guides for classes:

There is, however, a way for Enchanters to permanently grant mystical properties to weapons, armor, and items. However, this is not something an Enchanter can do on his or her own. To permanently enchant an item will take the combination of both an enchanter and another person with high-level non-combat skills. To creat a magic sword, for instance, and armorer would have to first buy the proper amount of ore to make the weapon, then find an Enchanter. The Enchanter will cast his magic upon the ore, which the armorer will then take to a forge and use to create a sword with permanent magical properties.

Kinda assumes that the chanter isn't the armoer..

Also, i've taken a few days to consider this, and i've asked some necros. As for the chanters being the best soloing class in the game.. i still think necros are. Simply because some other class can solo 5% of the zones better than a necro does not mean the other 95% fo the zones don't count. It's not an all or nothing things. Chanters have to be very selective of where they try to solo, and conditions have to be optimal; and, for 95% of the zones, we can't do it near as efficient... if at all. If you don't believe me, play one to 60 and see for yourself.

If a few of the best equiped, uber guild chanters are soloing better than the average necro.. it's got to do with more than their class; and is certainly not indicative of how far superior the classes soloing ability is.

I play a chanter, and sorry.. if you really think because a few uber elite chanters can solo effectively a couple places where you can't as a necro, and that makes chanters the BEST soloers in the game... i'll still have to laugh at the logic there.

Yalum

12-22-2002, 08:02 PM

A chanter with Command of Druzzil can do an AA in 40 minutes in any PoP zone you care to name, I've even seen people log on guild chanters to powerlevel their mains this way, so its not like it takes a lot of skill. And a good chanter who manages to get to the long-spawn mini bosses in places like BoT can pull down half a million plat in 65 spells and miscellaneous loot for a few hours work.

Necros may destroy Guk, but they don't come anywhere close to the power of a chanter.

Shaman Arriana

12-23-2002, 06:15 AM

There is a perfectly reasonable excuse why I don't make my own enchanter...wait for it...: I DON'T WANT TO.

Actually, there is more than one reason, although the above listed one is the most important. This is a game after all, and if I feel that playing an enchanter is the equivalent of slamming my face into a wall, then that is my perogative.

Other reasons include such gems as, not having to, not having the time to, not having any free space on the account for the character, prioritizing AA/levels on main rather than splitting time (and money) on a twink, etc, etc, etc.

In principle, I don't object to enchanters having a stranglehold over the enchanting market. I object to the implementation, and the ensuing in-game difficulty of finding people to do this. The difficulty is amplified because enchanters are hardly a rarely played class. Logic would indicate that a commonly played class should be easy to obtain the services of. This is not the case. The spells should be more accessible, and they should cost virtually no mana whatsoever (50 tops, would be ideal). It isn't like an enchanter is going to make 10 stacks of purified mana and 2 blocks of enchanted brellium and solo Kerafyrm with them.

Moraganth

12-26-2002, 06:48 PM

You're absolutely right.. my problem is.. i actually have respect for the necro class... apperantly unlike those that play the class... SO, to conform to the normal, i will now consider necros as the worst, most useless class... one incapable of soloing orc pawns in ec until level 50+.. who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack without the help of a chimpanzee and 2 trainies. There, that better?

My suggestion is.. find a real necro and watch them for a while... one that has a little respect for their class, and who knows how to play it. I have in the past couple months, and none of the class whining can disolve my memories of what a real necro can do.

Now for the other part of this comedy:

Shaman Arriana:

Yah know, you don't have to make a chanter iof you don't want to... but don't expect anyone that does play a chanter to be at your beck and call anytime you want... which is really what this is about. Yes, chanters are busy doing various other things... it is their right, as they pay to play the game too. They do not pay to be your slave.

If you don't feel the need to make a chanter of your own to relieve your problems, or use an alternate method to skillup that doesn't require a chanter... then the biggest problem is that you're doing nothing to solve your problem.

If you didn't aproach chanters as your possesions to wait on you hand and foot at any time.. and then btching and whining about it when they don't... maybe you'd get more willing to help.

Eq is designed so that no single person can do everything. If that's not the game you want to play... there are others. It's a game.. chill out and have some fun. As they say: relax, there's no reason to die all tensed up.